#273987 - 10/01/2006 16:36
iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, that was out of left field. All I was expecting were iBooks. Sounds sweet so far. Both dual core. iSight built in. Front Row is new to the MacBook Pro.
Anyways, I've got to get off the train now and walk to macworld. I hope I can keep my amex in my pocket.
Matthew
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#273988 - 10/01/2006 16:38
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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"New feature: New Power Adapter is magnetically held in. If yanked, comes right out." Oh be still my beating heart. Shipping in Feb. 2-2.5k
Matthew
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#273989 - 10/01/2006 17:01
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I'm left un-impressed, where are the updates at the affordable end of the market? Is a starting price for a laptop realistic at £1429? And what about a choice of size? That would be good at that kind of money, 15" is too big for me to want one  Cheers Cris.
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#273990 - 10/01/2006 18:10
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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All that stuff is coming.
The only thing that surprised me was the name change on the portables. The hardware itself I'd played with months ago.
You caught the bit where Steve mentioned the entire product line was going Intel THIS year right? Expect a lot more before July.
Bruno
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#273991 - 10/01/2006 18:20
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I guess its time to make sure the Mac software I wrote runs on an Intel Mac correctly...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#273992 - 10/01/2006 18:20
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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God^H^H^HBoss willing, I'll be placing an order for a MacBook soon through work. Great news, and totally unexpected this soon.
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#273993 - 10/01/2006 18:31
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: Cris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
I'm left un-impressed, where are the updates at the affordable end of the market?
They're coming. The affordable line has been as fast as the pro line for a year. The priority was getting the pro line up to speed.
Quote:
Is a starting price for a laptop realistic at £1429?
Yup. If you don't want to spend that much, buy an ibook. Or a dell.
Quote:
And what about a choice of size? That would be good at that kind of money, 15" is too big for me to want one
Obviously the line is going to be filled out. They're six months ahead of where they said they'd be, so complaining that they don't have a completely new line of computers ready to go now is a bit demanding.
Matthew
(Your local Apple Apologist)
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#273994 - 10/01/2006 18:40
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Yeah, I still can't if I want to press the buy button or not. With the educational discount, the machine I want comes to $2400. I probably should see what my current powerbook will sell for in the next few weeks before I order the next one. The lack of a cardbus slot is the annoying detail, as I just splurged on a cardbus CF reader that makes emptying CF cards so convenient.
Matthew
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#273995 - 10/01/2006 18:55
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Yeah, if I were buying for myself with my own coin, I might wait a bit to avoid early adopter's remorse and wait for the first round of price drops. But work owes me a better laptop than the hand-me-down 1.25 GHz 15" Aluminum G4 I've been using for the past year, so I'm not expecting much of a fight when I ask for an upgrade.
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#273996 - 10/01/2006 20:21
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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Quote:
"New feature: New Power Adapter is magnetically held in. If yanked, comes right out."
As available on Taiwan made coffee pots for the last couple of decades.
I always thought it was a good idea, especially after the death of my Compaq's power port.
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#273997 - 10/01/2006 20:26
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: larry818]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Quote:
"New feature: New Power Adapter is magnetically held in. If yanked, comes right out."
As available on Taiwan made coffee pots for the last couple of decades.
I always thought it was a good idea, especially after the death of my Compaq's power port.
This a fancier version of the little detachable bit on an Xbox controller lead then?
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#273998 - 10/01/2006 20:27
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Been waiting a while for this to finally happen. I'll be heading to my local reseller here in a bit to order the new MacBook Pro.
The only minor disappointment was that the CPU isn't the 2ghz Duo in it. But I'm not going to let that stop me from upgrading my 1.25 G4 system. It's been a good workhorse for 2.5 years, and I expect this new system will last just as long.
I'm also surprised that the case didn't change much. Beyond accommodating the new hardware for the isight and IR sensor, it's still the same. At least it should mean my case for the existing Powerbook will fit it.
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#273999 - 10/01/2006 20:39
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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How nice of Mr Jobs to announce these on the day I get budget approval for a Mac project  Rather gorgeous looking laptop now ordered! Rob
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#274000 - 11/01/2006 00:42
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Now just make one with a 10" screen that weighs 2lbs or less.
_________________________
Matt
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#274001 - 11/01/2006 00:57
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Or, make something along the lines of the IBM/Lenovo X41 Tablet. I've been using it for a few months now, and while I like the general idea, I'd love to see an Apple interpretation of things like OneNote and Windows Journal Viewer. There's a whole lot of room for improvement.
(And, if I could buy Mac OS X to run on my existing IBM, I'd probably do it.)
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#274002 - 11/01/2006 05:49
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: Cris]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
I'm left un-impressed, where are the updates at the affordable end of the market?
I'm too lazy to find the article or exact numbers but I read that Apple pays ~$30 for the G4 chips and these Intel chips are ~$150. So Apple couldn't keep the same price points on their budget machines unless they were willing to accept a much lower profit or find other ways to lower the manufacturing cost.
Edited by Dylan (11/01/2006 05:50)
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#274003 - 11/01/2006 07:05
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I'm too lazy to find the article or exact numbers but I read that Apple pays ~$30 for the G4 chips and these Intel chips are ~$150.
One of the stories that went around when Apple originally said they were switching to Intel was that Intel were going to offer a very attractive discount per CPU.
What I find quite odd is the backlash that Apple have received from switching to Intel. Loads of postings from Mac fanboys who say they're never switching and how Apple have screwed up etc... What are the chances they'll buy it anyway?
At the end of the day, 95% of the people that use a Mac don't need to know what CPU is inside and probably wouldn't notice anyway. If it runs OS X and can run all your apps then whats the big deal?
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#274004 - 11/01/2006 13:11
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I agree that most users could care less about the CPU architecture unless they happen to be the sort of user who wants to run big-memory apps and really needs a 64-bit address space. For those users, it makes sense for Apple to stick with the G5's in the big tower configurations, at least until Intel goes x86-64 across their product line and Apple can do one final migration. Probably the most intriguing feature on the new MacBook is that they dropped PCMCIA and went with ExpressCard/34. This is the next-generation standard from the PCMCIA people, and it comes in two form factors: one 34mm wide, and the other 54mm wide. Electrically, it's PCI Express, so it's blazingly fast. There's already one vendor offering a 5-in-1 memory card reader that will fit in the MacBook. However, the professional photographers are screwed by this. All the big cameras use CompactFlash, which is too big to fit in a 34mm slot. You need the larger 54mm slot. That requires some kind of external solution. Given Apple's big push into supporting pro photographers, you'd think they'd get this right. Never mind that, by ditching PCMCIA, Apple is also making life rough for anybody with an EDGE of EV-DO card on their laptop. Maybe they're assuming that you'll just do everything with Bluetooth to your cel phone.
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#274005 - 11/01/2006 13:42
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I agree that most users could care less about the CPU architecture unless they happen to be the sort of user who wants to run big-memory apps and really needs a 64-bit address space. For those users, it makes sense for Apple to stick with the G5's in the big tower configurations, at least until Intel goes x86-64 across their product line and Apple can do one final migration.
Yeah. That would make the most sense. Yet another big recompile stage coming up in the future then...
Quote:
Probably the most intriguing feature on the new MacBook is that they dropped PCMCIA and went with ExpressCard/34. This is the next-generation standard from the PCMCIA people, and it comes in two form factors: one 34mm wide, and the other 54mm wide. Electrically, it's PCI Express, so it's blazingly fast.
ExpressCard is USB 2 as well. It is up to the manufacturer of the card to decide what to use. I guess a majority of cards will be USB 2 anyway so the manufacturer can just release it in a little external box for desktop PCs as well.
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#274006 - 12/01/2006 20:38
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Tom, when you get the new machine post here about its size. I'll have a closer look at the numbers on Apple's page, but from the images it looks bigger (except in thickness). This is now a 15.4" screen where PowerBooks sport a 15.2" variety.
I'm waiting a few months for a new portable so I may end up with a 17" when those come out. But if I went with a 15" I might have to give up the current Booq Vyper shell I have anyway.
In the meantime I'll probably pick up the cheaper iMac to make sure our code comppiles and runs on Intel systems.
EDIT:
Yup, it's bigger. 9mm wider and 2mm deeper. Anyone else also notice the superdrive in this system won't record dual layer nor is it as fast as previous models (4x compared to 8x)? And that the screen is LOWER resolution than the 15.2" model in the last PB revision... Yuck. Saving grace is that it's 16:10 like their desktop displays. I'd still have preferred 1600x1000 though.
Bruno
Edited by hybrid8 (12/01/2006 20:53)
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#274007 - 12/01/2006 21:01
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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FWIW, I believe you can compile for Intel using PowerPC Macs. Of course, there's not much way to test it until you get an Intel-based Mac, but at least you can work out any compile bugs beforehand.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#274008 - 12/01/2006 21:14
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I fear that a lot of PC users might have a lot of unrealistic expectations out there about the Intel-based Macs. Take the current front page of Penny-Arcade. Those guys are at least reasonably knowledgeable about computers, even if not in-depth, and they're saying things like:
Quote:
Let a single hardware spec run both operating systems and be done with it.
The notion that they're the same hardware spec is simply absurd. That's like saying that an empeg and an Acorn are the same because they use the same processor.
Quote:
Apple has succeeded in cracking my resolve.
Why? Because they use a hardware component that you'll never interact with directly? That's kind of like switching to Apple because they started using UHCI USB ports instead of OHCI. Who cares?
Quote:
Some people are telling me that the new MacBook won’t run certain software. All I really need to know is will the damn thing play WOW?
I don't know. Maybe WOW is available for the Mac. But I have this feeling that they might be expecting it to run Windows apps just because it has an Intel processor.
I have a feeling that there's going to be a big backlash against Apple when these unrealistic expectations come crashing to the ground and people find that they can't actually run Windows software on them.
Edit: Okay, I've just been told that I'm a complete moron and that they can be rebooted to run Windows. Scary. 
Edited by wfaulk (12/01/2006 21:19)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#274009 - 12/01/2006 21:37
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Quote:
Let a single hardware spec run both operating systems and be done with it.
The notion that they're the same hardware spec is simply absurd. That's like saying that an empeg and an Acorn are the same because they use the same processor.
Apparently they aren't running anything particularly special. The Intel chipset isn't a custom Mac one and just a standard Intel one from rumours. The only thing different is that it uses EFI instead of a PC BIOS.
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#274010 - 12/01/2006 21:43
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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There must be something different about the machine, if for no other reason than to help OS X detect if it's on a non-Apple box and refuse to boot.
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#274011 - 12/01/2006 22:22
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
There must be something different about the machine, if for no other reason than to help OS X detect if it's on a non-Apple box and refuse to boot.
No clue. There probably is an extra chip/device hanging off the internal bus that it talks to which verifies that it is an official Apple machine. The developer machines had a TPM chip.
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#274013 - 13/01/2006 03:39
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: adavidw]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Either way, I've read some informed speculation, and lots of uninformed speculation, but nobody's actually tried it yet since the machines aren't out there yet.
Yeah, but this sounds really freakin' promising.
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#274014 - 13/01/2006 04:31
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Okay, I've just been told that I'm a complete moron and that they can be rebooted to run Windows.
Hopefully it won't even require rebooting. The processors in the new Macs support the latest Intel machine virtualization technology, which makes it even easier to run one OS within another.
I expect to see versions of VMWare and Virtual PC for the Intel Mac that run Windows at pretty much full native speed.
If this really happens I think my next desktop machine may well be a Mac running OS X and Windows at the same time...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#274015 - 13/01/2006 06:33
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I'll take some photos of it alongside my existing Powerbook G4 to see how noticeable the difference is. Quote:
. Anyone else also notice the superdrive in this system won't record dual layer nor is it as fast as previous models (4x compared to 8x)? And that the screen is LOWER resolution than the 15.2" model in the last PB revision... Yuck. Saving grace is that it's 16:10 like their desktop displays. I'd still have preferred 1600x1000 though.
Apparently the slimming of the case prevented Apple from fitting in the 8x/DL burners. Doesn't bother me too much, I do only a little DVD burning, and my system is a 2x drive, so still an upgrade.
Screen res, also not a huge deal to me. The system did go from 1440x960 to 1440x900. In the move, Apple went to the standard 16:10 LCDs used in the rest of the industry, instead of the 15:10 screens they used. Should avoid their screens lagging too far behind again, and also avoid issues like the complaints on the newer PowerBook screens. And for me, I'm at 1280x854 currently, so again an upgrade for me. And until the DPI independent stuff is brought forward in Lepoard, I'd prefer it to not go too far beyond the 110ish DPI range.
Regarding World of Warcraft, Blizzard shipped it day 1 in the same box for PC and Mac. They are one of the best gaming companies for supporting both sides. And they will have Universal binaries for the new Intel Macs free of charge for all existing subscribers by the end of January. WoW is a big deal to 5 million people around the world (and still growing). So the fact that it works on the Mac, including all the in game mods is actually a big deal. I know some people at work very likely to look at a Mac laptop now with the performance jump, OS X, and perfect WoW support.
Regarding Windows, the issue is that no 32 bit version currently supports EFI, however the x64 and IA64 versions do. The new Macs are all 32 bit, so Windows won't boot natively. The question now would be is if Apple is shipping the backwards compatibility part of EFI in the systems to still be able to boot Windows. Thus far, it seem no hackers ran out and grabbed the iMacs to try it, but probably soon more info should be out there. Apple has stated many times they have no intent to block other OSs from running on the Macs, but they will try to protect OS X. Oh, and apparently Gateway has been shipping some Media Center boxes running 32 bit processors and EFI. Either MS added EFI support to Media Center XP, or Gateway is relying on the backwards compatibility aspect. I've not personally looked into it too much to see where the major issue is. My guesses are the lack of a compatible boot loader, and also the lack of support for GPT disks over MBR disks.
Vista will support EFI in their 32 bit versions.
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#274016 - 13/01/2006 15:27
Re: iMacs and "MacBook Pro"
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
If this really happens I think my next desktop machine may well be a Mac running OS X and Windows at the same time...
You'll need a whole lot of memory to make that work effectively. VMware had a paper at OSDI a few years ago about how to better make multiple OS's cooperate when running under VM. The idea was that they put a kernel-level driver in each OS. When the VM system decides it wants to take memory back from one OS, then the driver just allocates a bunch of physical pages and pins them. The VM system knows that those aren't "real" pages, so it can give the memory back to the other OS by having the cooresponding driver unpin its own pre-allocated pages. I don't know when/if this sort of technology will make its way into commercial virtualization systems, but it's going to be necessary to let two memory hog OS's run together.
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